INGREDIENTS:
What does that ingredient on your label actually do in your body, and why is TikTok so mad about it?
On Ingredients, we pick one nutrient or ingredient at a time and unpack it from every angle: biochemistry, physiology, public health, and the social media discourse that shapes how we feel about food.
Hosted by Susana, a registered dietitian, and MJ, a public health person, this podcast is where evidence meets everyday eating, and nutrition trends get a much-needed reality check.
Find Susana here:
TikTok and Instagram: susana.ritchey.rd
Bluesky Social: susanaritcheyrd.bsky.social
An Everything is Public Health Production
Website: https://www.everythingispublichealth.com/
INGREDIENTS:
Fat
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The Dietary Guidelines to limit saturated fat to less than 10% of our calories didn’t change. The political and social beliefs surrounding animal and plant fats did. In this episode, MJ and Susana talk about the divide between the scientific community and pop nutrition influencers—including some in positions of power, and how that divisions can make using canola oil or eating an avocado a bit confusing and sometimes polarizing.
Find Susana here:
TikTok and Instagram: susana.ritchey.rd
Bluesky Social: susanaritcheyrd.bsky.social
Music Credit:
Pixabay: TVARI - Tokyo Cafe
An Everything is Public Health production.
Welcome back to the ingredients podcast. I'm MJ.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Susanna.
SPEAKER_01What are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_00Today we are talking about fat.
SPEAKER_01The cousin to protein and meat.
SPEAKER_00Right. Big topics.
SPEAKER_01Very timely. If you know, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And you know, I think the last few episodes we've had to start with a lot of information. So I thought we should do something a little more fun and maybe play a game to start.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So we're gonna go through fat sources and then we're gonna say if they were celebrities, who do you think they would be?
SPEAKER_01Okay. Tell me a fat source.
SPEAKER_00Let's go with beef tallow.
SPEAKER_01Oh, easy. RFK Jr. Okay, that's that freaking podiatrist guy, Solodino. Is that his name?
SPEAKER_00Paul Solidino. He's a psychiatrist.
SPEAKER_01Oh, he's a psychiatrist. That's even worse. He doesn't even work with the body.
SPEAKER_00But you know what? That's a pretty good one that I hadn't thought of.
SPEAKER_01I guess they're a little too on the nose. Who do they remind me of, if not directly them? I think it's giving like faux masculinity, performative masculinity. I eat bacon because I'm an American. So some like conservative celebrity, which I frankly don't know that many of.
SPEAKER_00But they have to have sort of like a wholesome vibe. Do they? Well, that's the reason people lean into tallow. They're like, oh, I'm on the frontier.
SPEAKER_01Like frontier vibe. So some country artists would be my go-to, but I don't know any country artists.
SPEAKER_00So that's reasonable. I'm trying to think of the one that could kind of got in some trouble.
SPEAKER_01There's so many that gets in trouble.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like all of them. Okay. Well, then let's move on to coconut oil.
SPEAKER_01Coconut oil. Okay. It's giving. I feel like they were very popular with the vegans because it's a plant-based oil, but it's also like in a weird appropriation, like Orientalism sort of way. It's better because it's from Asia.
SPEAKER_00You know, the one I thought of, I was just thinking of someone who was like huge in 2012, because that's when I think of coconut oil, and then solid at room temperature. And then I think it smells nice if you get the unrefined version. So just kind of given those characteristics peaked in 2012. Solid smells nice. I was thinking Josh Hutcherson. How does your mind work? That's how your mind works. And I don't know how he smells, but he probably I feel like he smells nice.
SPEAKER_01Are you Team Pita? Is that his name?
SPEAKER_00I was so conflicted at the time, but in retrospect, yes, I believe I'm Team PETA.
SPEAKER_01I believe that is the correct choice because the other person was Gail, right? Played by one of the Hemsworth.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01I have no idea how you got from coconut oil to Josh Hutcherson. Like your mind works in mysterious ways.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01But it's giving like crunchy vegan vibes, though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I could see that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Somehow Josh Hutcherson, whatever. All right, next one.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Avocado oil.
SPEAKER_01Now this is recent because I feel like avocado oil wasn't a thing until very recently. And it does give vegan vibes again because it's a plant-based oil. And it gives like crunchy vibes because it's like avocado toast. So I'm thinking a young influencer vibe celebrity. I don't know. Maybe. Oh, it's also very bougie.
SPEAKER_00Those are all really, yeah, reasonable characteristics.
SPEAKER_01Taylor Swift, maybe.
SPEAKER_00Um, I don't know. I guess I just feel like avocado oil had like kind of a fleeting moment, and we probably disagree about Taylor Swift, but she's kind of in it for the long haul. Like she's forever. We're gonna have a falling out.
SPEAKER_01You know what? I can't have this argument with you. I'm not gonna say it.
SPEAKER_00I was thinking Jessica Alba.
SPEAKER_01Wow, fleeting moment. That's a big diss.
SPEAKER_00And that's harsh. You know what? She has been cool for a long time to give Jessica Alba credit. But she's like, at first, when I think kind of crunchy, I think like Gwyneth Paltro, but that's too extreme, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh, Granit Paltro wouldn't touch avocado oil. I feel like she's on some, I don't know. This oil is made from four goats in the Himalayas or something.
SPEAKER_00Right. She's got way cooler, weirder things. So I was thinking someone wellnessy, but like also normal. Jessica Alba is pretty wellnessy, but in like a more I haven't followed her career.
SPEAKER_01Is she wellnessy?
SPEAKER_00Well, have you ever seen The Honest Company?
SPEAKER_01No. What the hell is that?
SPEAKER_00It was actually one of the first like clean, um, not beauty. Well, yeah, beauty. Clean beauty, cosmetic, like baby products lines. I'm not gonna lie, before I, you know, learn to like scientific evidence, I was a big fan.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Jessica Alba was my gateway into clean beauty.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I did not know that side of her. And I think a lot of things don't cross my radar, probably because I don't know, I'm just not plugged into this space, and probably because I'm a man. A lot of marketing just doesn't hit me in the same way.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think she made like a ton of money from this business. It was very impressive.
SPEAKER_01Impressive or bad?
SPEAKER_00You know, depends what lens you want to view it from.
SPEAKER_01I suppose. Oh boy. Okay, so avocado oil is Jessica Elba.
SPEAKER_00Let's do something less controversial, like olive oil.
SPEAKER_01Olive oil may be Taylor Swift. Longevity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She's always there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01People still like her no matter what she does.
SPEAKER_00See, I see the opposite side where people kind of hate her no matter what she does.
SPEAKER_01Depends on who you ask, I suppose. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's funny because I love her no matter what. So and I perceive that everyone else hates her no matter what. But no, that's a good one. I feel like she's versatile.
SPEAKER_01She's very versatile, very mainstream.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. My thought, I was thinking of something that was classic and universally respected because even RFK Jr. likes olive oil.
SPEAKER_01Now that is amazing.
SPEAKER_00Everyone likes olive oil across the wellness spectrum. Everyone loves it. So I was thinking Julie Andrews.
SPEAKER_01That's a throwback. I don't know anything about her besides that she was in sound of music. But I get what you mean. Like celebrities, regardless of where you're coming from, people generally have a positive impression. So yeah, Taylor Swift might be too polarizing to be olive oil, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you know what she could be though? She could be the next one. Canola oil.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like mainstream, but canola oil is the quote unquote cheaper oil, and she's definitely not cheap.
SPEAKER_00She does have there's a lot of backlash, like especially from people on the far right and the far left, particularly the far right, which fits with canola.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But you know what? She's not Canadian, and canola oil is Canadian oil.
SPEAKER_01Canadian in origin. I think they make it elsewhere now, but yes, Canadian in origin.
SPEAKER_00Yes, Canadian in uh in name.
SPEAKER_01What's next?
SPEAKER_00Okay, butter.
SPEAKER_01Butter is Julia Child for me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01She loves butter and she puts butter in everything.
SPEAKER_00What is the quote about Julia Child and Butter?
SPEAKER_01Like everything tastes better with butter or something.
SPEAKER_00Probably something like that.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, that's a classic vintage.
SPEAKER_00I was trying to think of something classic that like really appeals aesthetically just because the flavor and the smell and you know everything about butter is attractive. Maybe evokes a little bit of deep south, but also like a little bit classy. So I was thinking Dolly Parton.
SPEAKER_01Dolly Parton makes sense. Classic, everyone likes it. Slightly less popular with a younger audience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00The last one, I don't know if we should even do it because I couldn't think of one. I was thinking grape seed oil.
SPEAKER_01That's very niche.
SPEAKER_00It was like a big deal like 15 years ago.
SPEAKER_01So who was a one-hit wunter 15 years ago?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question.
SPEAKER_01Okay, we'll let the audience decide.
SPEAKER_00And now people hate it because it's a seed oil.
SPEAKER_01It's like a Yeah, but like the seed oil panic is not real. So let's talk about fat, another macronutrient. This will round up our discussion of the macronutrients, I believe. Did we do carbs? We did added sugar, which is kind of carbs, but not really. But maybe we'll come back to carbs in a future episode. You know, one of the three main macronutrients. Let's talk about what it is.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So if we want to be a little bit more accurate, the broader category when we think about macronutrients, we have carbs, proteins, and lipids. The only reason I say this is because fats are lipids, but like so are cholesterol. So that's why they're sort of in the same category. Lipids are a class of macromolecules that don't do a great job of dissolving in water. So this is why fat and cholesterol neither are going to dissolve in water. We don't need to be too precise for this episode.
SPEAKER_01But the idea is that the category is lipids, but fat is the more colloquial term for it.
SPEAKER_00Right. And that's why you're going to hear about fat and cholesterol as sort of the same category. There are so many different subcategories of dietary fat. I think it helps to have a bit of baseline knowledge in order to have a good conversation about it. So the first term to know is triglyceride. Over 95% of the fat we consume is in the form of triglycerides. So this is a compound with a glycerol backbone and three fatty acids, and you can sort of think of it as like a jellyfish. The glycerol would be that jelly backbone, and then the fatty acids are like the little tentacles. And the types of fatty acids on that glycerol backbone give a fat certain characteristics. And there are hundreds of different fatty acids, or over a hundred different fatty acids, but there are some that we see more frequently. So we often categorize them as saturated and unsaturated fatty acids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if you've ever taken biochemistry, you know like how diverse the fatty acids can be. Which carbon does the branch happen? Or whether it's branched or unbranched, how many double bonds there are. We can get very tentacle, but we certainly don't have to. Just know that each one of them have a different biochemical makeup and therefore process. But the two big subcategories that most people will be familiar with is saturated and unsaturated.
SPEAKER_00Right. So saturated fats tend to be solid at room temperature, like butter, coconut oil, palm oil, lard, and tallow. They are commonly found in animal products and tropical oils, whereas unsaturated fats tend to be found in higher quantities in fattier plant-based foods like seeds, nuts, olives, and avocado, but it's also found in fish. And then within unsaturated fats, those can be broadly categorized into monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats. So olive oil and avocados are known for being rich in monounsaturated fats. Polyunsaturated fats, they tend to encompass a wide variety of fatty acids, but often we see the wellness world kind of condemning them as pufas or polyunsaturated fatty acids.
SPEAKER_01Just because puffa sounds bad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you'll see people will say pufas, they'll say toxic inflammatory seed oils, they'll say industrial seed oils. Um it's silly because pufas also, yes, they include the nemesis of the wellness world, seed oils, but they also include omega-3 fatty acids, which is sort of the angel baby of the wellness world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they keep talking about like you need your fish oils or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Right. And of course, food isn't just one or the other. We love really stark categories, but that's rarely the case. So for instance, olive oil, it's not just monounsaturated fatty acid. It's about 15% saturated fat and 85% unsaturated, with about three-fourths of that unsaturated fat coming from monounsaturated fats, and then about a quarter coming from polyunsaturated fats.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's often a mix and you're never just taking one or the other just because something is solid or not.
SPEAKER_00Right. I often have people concerned about seed oils and in a baby formula, and they're wondering why can't you just replace like the seed oils with something like beef tallow? That is a serious statement. Dairy fat. And it's because we're looking for different fatty acids, right? Like it's not just fat. It's about this really distinct profile of fatty acids.
SPEAKER_01Is there any substantial difference between monounsaturated and polyunsaturated that a normal person should care about?
SPEAKER_00Uh, polyunsaturated fats do oxidize faster. So this is, you know, I mean, people are right when they say that sometimes you are more likely to have polyunsaturated fats that turn rancid. That said, not every seed oil is rancid. And there was actually like an interesting study looking at a bunch of avocado oils, which are mostly monounsaturated fatty acids, and most of the avocado oils on the shelf were rancid. So you can't just make these broad generalizations. It has to do with the storage and quality control and sourcing.
SPEAKER_01I'm sure, yeah. Also, people say like beef, tallow, and butter don't go ranc. They most certainly do as well.
SPEAKER_00And just like thinking of the way that people are like using tallow and like cosmetics with no preservatives and just like it's gonna go bad. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01The fact that polyunsaturated fat has this one thing, that's rife for the wellness industry to just pick up on that one detail.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's also just a potential mechanistic pathways that people have sort of clung to. I knew it. Um, omega-6 fatty acids are technically polyunsaturated fats, and they are needed for something called arachidonic acid, which is part of an inflammatory pathway.
SPEAKER_01Ow, I knew it. It's this one detail.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but you know, it's time and time again, just because there's a mechanism that something could be biologically plausible doesn't mean that that's how it plays out in the body, because there are hundreds of thousands of mechanisms going on at the same time, right? And only about 2% of, I believe it's the linoleic acid from the seed oils have a lot of linoleic acid, which is an omega-6 fatty acid. Only like 2% of that gets converted to arachidonic acid. That is from deep in my brain. I really hope I'm correct with that.
SPEAKER_01We could have fact check this later. Hello, post-et and the MJ here. It seems like it's less than 1%. So their claim is actually even weaker. But the point is, like the human body is running thousands of biochemical reactions at any given moment. Right. And to hyperfixate on one reaction that these people probably can't even draw on the blackboard is kind of silly.
SPEAKER_00Mechanisms are not how we draw scientific conclusions, right? We look at studies, randomized control trials, and highest quality evidence we have says that these oils are actually pretty health promoting and better for cardiovascular health when you replace saturated fats like butter with these.
SPEAKER_01I wonder why.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's part of the story there.
SPEAKER_01So we have saturated, unsaturated, mono and polysaturated, but they're all sort of lipids. They serve somewhat different functions, but generally speaking, the division is between saturated and unsaturated fat.
SPEAKER_00Right. So one thing that's interesting, I know we talked a lot about the dietary guidelines for Americans in the protein and meat episode. It's also pretty, pretty relevant for this one because we know that historically the dietary guidelines for Americans, as well as most major medical and nutrition organizations, recommend limiting saturated fat. And both previous guidelines and the new ones implemented by RFK Jr., who loves beef tallow, still recommends limiting saturated fat to less than 10% of calories. That hasn't changed. And this is why the visual of the new upside down pyramid doesn't really make sense. There would be no way to eat consistently with the pyramid visual without exceeding that 10% of calories from saturated fat.
SPEAKER_01It's almost like they care more about the aesthetics of diet than the actual nutrition.
SPEAKER_00Right. They know no one is no one cares about the actual guidelines, right? We have historically seen over and over and over again that people don't follow the dietary guidelines. But having this big moment of, oh, we flipped the pyramid upside down is what they care about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's talking points, it's sound bites, and it's wrong on two levels because our previous model is not the pyramid, it's the plate. Pyramid has been retired for decades, I think.
SPEAKER_00Right. That is the absolutely the most annoying part of it. But yeah, so the upside down pyramid has all this red meat, butter, full fat dairy in the image, and we would definitely be exceeding the 10% of calories from saturated fat if we ate that way.
SPEAKER_01There is a YouTube video that I recommend people watch. It might be a little hard to watch, but I think it's worth at least uh a cursory viewing. Eddie Burback, he's a YouTuber. He did a video that's like, I ate like RFK for a month.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, it's like uh what was that documentary from like 2000?
SPEAKER_01Oh, Super Size Me?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's like Super Size Me.
SPEAKER_01It's like a modern version of Supersize Me. Supersize Me has been somewhat debunked. Uh, whatever, can't get into that. But the point is, he did that video. Brilliant concept because it gets clicks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I bet.
SPEAKER_01Because people want to see it. And yeah, like it sucked. Like he in the video, he was like, at a certain point, you kind of just am over it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, food doesn't sound very fun anymore when you can't get a variety, which is maybe why it works as like a diet because people get like sick of food. I don't know. I've never done one.
SPEAKER_01We can get into the the low carb diet fads in a bit. But yeah, so fats, it's a necessary part of our body.
SPEAKER_00Right. Unfortunately, excess saturated fat can increase LDL cholesterol. So minimizing those excessive saturated fats is important for preventing heart disease and other health concerns.
SPEAKER_01General consensus in the scientific community is that saturated fat, you kind of want to watch out, not take too much of those.
SPEAKER_00And I think the cultural discussion, the nutrition discussion around fat has just been kind of endless. We've seen extremes in different directions. A lot of people remember the momentum of low-fat diets in the 80s and 90s. And I think a lot of influencers love to exploit the diet trauma of middle-aged women and what they experienced in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s with this very like modern pendulum swing. Were you forced to eat low-fat Oreos in 1990s? That was clearly wrong. So let's compensate with this other very extreme option.
SPEAKER_01Same thing with fashion. You see this pendulum swing in fashion all the time, like low rise gene, actually high-waisted jeans. Actually, back to low rise.
SPEAKER_00Yes, definitely. It's just like that. It's like we went from low rise skinny jeans to like whatever Gen Z is wearing. And I don't know about fashion, but in nutrition, the extremes are rarely ideal.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00But they do work well in marketing and on social media.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it's really hard to advertise a balanced diet because there's no clickbait with a balanced diet.
SPEAKER_00It's so much easier. That's often just the way that low-carb, higher fat diets are advertised. They point out something problematic with the past and then they sort of insert this alternate extreme as the solution, but we don't have that same solution for a balanced diet.
SPEAKER_01Because the opposite of a balanced diet is just another balanced diet.
SPEAKER_00Right. We have changed very incrementally over the years. All right.
SPEAKER_01What's in desiggeists?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so returning to the upside down pyramid and some of the changes in the national guidance when it comes to fat. So as I mentioned before, we got these new dietary guidelines for Americans in January. And in regards to the guidance on fat, they did, as I mentioned before, keep a few things the same. And that is keeping saturated fat to less than 10% of our calories. But instead, they made a list of preferred fats for cooking as butter, tallow, and olive oil.
SPEAKER_01One of those is not like the other.
SPEAKER_00And then they skipped over fats like vegetable oil and canola oil, safflower oils, and other oils that they deem too high in polyunsaturated fats.
SPEAKER_02So pointless.
SPEAKER_00I think it's pretty clear that this is just blatant pandering to trends. Tallow in the dietary guidelines for Americans is wild. It's wild. There's a strong disregard for the evidence we have that supports replacing sources of saturated fat with poly or monounsaturated fat. One of the biggest health problems that we face in the United States is heart disease. And we are saying to use more tallow and butter. It's crazy. If we really wanted to get into the zeitgeist, we would do the nitty-gritty with seed oils, but I really think that takes almost a separate episode.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it does. I made a similar episode. You guys could check that out.
SPEAKER_00Okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_01I'll link it in the description. But the skinny of it is because of the fear of polyunsaturated fats and their fear of this one fatty acid.
SPEAKER_00To be fair, the fear of the production methods often used in order to extract the oil from the seed.
SPEAKER_01A lot of people But in a way, that's like not substantial.
SPEAKER_00It's not substantial at all. The scientific evidence just like is pretty clear that we want to be replacing things like butter and tallow with unsaturated fat sources.
SPEAKER_01The seed oil issue is always strange to me because it's one thing to be like, oh, like I'm concerned about the production process of, for example, canola oil. That's one thing. It's unfounded, but that's one thing. Maybe you're like really concerned about chemical extraction of oil, which sometimes you have to do.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean, the first time I heard of it, I thought, yeah, that sounds kind of freaky. What's going on here? Like, I understand asking the question for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that part is not problematic because chemical extraction of oil does look very gnarly. Like, if you ever looked into it, physical extraction makes sense because you're just squeezing and pulling. It's like a very visual process. Oh, yeah, you're squeezing the peanuts, and then oil comes out of the peanuts, and then you filter it, and then there you go, peanut oil. But chemical extraction like canola oil does look gnarly. But the issue I have is like just pick another oil. Oil then? Like if that's your concern. Why are you like saying all seed oil is bad because canola oil is extracted in a weird way?
SPEAKER_00That's also an interesting thing to say, just because people are super worried about those omega-6 fatty acids or like the linoleic acid. And there are like types of canola oil that are higher in oleic acid than like olive oil. So like you could just pick a different version of it.
SPEAKER_01So many options.
SPEAKER_00But people don't do that. Instead, there's like a ton of fear, which yes, hexane, the chemical used, often used to extract oil from seeds, is scary sounding. But you know, learning helps that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, learning about it helps that. But just wish you a different oil, if that's really your concern.
SPEAKER_00So now with these new guidelines, we sort of have this question of how can we possibly limit saturated fat to less than 10% of our calories when we're replacing canola oil with tallow and butter. And essentially, I think the olive oil is just doing all of the heavy lifting here. So maybe if olive oil were a celebrity, it should be like the rock doing the heavy lifting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's problematic now though. What happened?
SPEAKER_00I don't want to get into that, but okay, we'll chat about that later.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, like something that's um doing a lot of heavy lifting.
SPEAKER_00So we also know that the administration signed the Whole Milk for Healthy Kids Act into law, which it's tough because I try not to have like too um emotional of a reaction because like this isn't a terrible thing. It's just such a propaganda-y move that I physically react.
SPEAKER_01It's very aesthetic without substance.
SPEAKER_00So it allows schools to serve full fat and 2% milk.
SPEAKER_01That's it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, from like a just very non-emotional standpoint, just being transparent. Like in clinical practice, I recommend full fat dairy for kids all the time, particularly for kids struggling to gain weight. It's hard to implement like a blanket, everyone should have this type of dairy, because like everyone, particularly kids, have really variable needs. So I do like the idea of having more options instead of less. The problem is that if kids are going to be consuming full fat milk, we should be mindful of other sources of saturated fats that they're consuming. So maybe not cooking foods in tallow. Like at baseline, we know that people in the United States are typically already consuming too much saturated fat. Now we're potentially incorporating more saturated fat through dairy. Even if I don't like hate that idea, we do need to be mindful about the other sources in order to prevent the chronic disease outcomes related to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. My issue with the milk thing is that if they just said, hey, full fat milk tastes better, I would be like, Yeah, it does. I can't argue with you there, dude. It does taste better. But they have to tie it up in this weird, like, maha. Oh, it's actually that we're making kids healthier.
SPEAKER_00Like it's so much better. And it's like there could be some health benefits in certain circumstances, but it's not magic.
SPEAKER_01No, it's not.
SPEAKER_00Changing skim milk to whole milk is not magic.
SPEAKER_01The same thing with tallow. If they just said, yeah, beef tallow tastes better, I would be like, you know what? It does. It does taste better. I can't argue with you there. But it's the tying this with the pseudoscience stuff that's like really problematic.
SPEAKER_00Right. I do think there are more legs to stand on that full fat dairy could be beneficial for health than there are to say that tallow is beneficial for health.
SPEAKER_01For sure. My point is like, just say it tastes better. Just that's what you want to say. Right. At the core of your heart is that you love eating these foods.
SPEAKER_00You just love meat and dairy. Like, that's really what it is. Just say that. But yeah, so the saturated fat adds up quickly, as we've already talked about. If you look at that upside-down pyramid, there's lots of animal-based fats, steak, ground beef, butter, whole milk, eggs, full fat yogurt. Tallow doesn't make it into the visual. These are all super nutrient-dense foods that can be a part of a super healthy diet, but the quantity in which we consume them really matters. Historically, the dietary guidelines relied on an independent advisory committee that actually implemented food modeling to ensure that what they were recommending met the needs of most people. They skipped that step. They did not do that. And so that's why there is such a stark discrepancy between the recommendation to limit saturated fat and then the recommended fat sources. It's confusing and it shows that the administration emphasizes trends over science, aesthetics over substance. The trends in fat come and go, but the scientific consensus has remained relatively stable. If the dietary guidelines were built on trends, we would have seen very different things. Like the 2020 to 2025 guidelines would have been a keto pyramid.
SPEAKER_02No carbs.
SPEAKER_00And 2015 to 2020 would have been avocado oil. I think the 2010 to 2015 would have been all about coconut oil.
SPEAKER_01Which is problematic in its own right because it's saturated.
SPEAKER_00Right. And then there would have been like decades of just like a country croc pyramid, probably.
SPEAKER_01What is that?
SPEAKER_00You know, like that margarine, you'd recognize the container.
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you mean. Uh margarine, those were the days.
SPEAKER_00Hopefully, we've emphasized enough just that fat is not bad. And I know that we're like picking on saturated fat. Saturated fat is important. Seed oils aren't bad. It's how our diets come together as a whole that matters, not the individual oil.
SPEAKER_01I think this is an important point to make because again, we've been through the fat is bad phase, and that actually has a whole host of issues as well.
SPEAKER_00Right. And now we're not doing fat is bad, we're doing this type of fat is bad. And I think instead of teaching people so much nutrition dogma, if we could kind of emphasize the nuance and how our diets come together instead of individual components.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but it's just so hard to pitch a balanced diet.
SPEAKER_00It is really hard. Um, I guess the best marketing experts out there haven't figured it out yet.
SPEAKER_01So there's no money in it for them to figure this out because you can't really sell balanced diet. Well, actually, no, that's not true. Like factor and all the other stuff are coming into being trendy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the meal services. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Maybe some marketing person will figure out how to market balanced diet. They just have to come in pre-packed microwavable tins.
SPEAKER_00We'll see.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy. And of course, we have to talk about the keto diet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think one of the kind of more common low-carb diets that we have seen grow in popularity over the past maybe like 10 years is the ketogenic diet. This encompasses like a lot of different definitions. It's a very valid diet used in a very specific circumstance.
SPEAKER_02So niche.
SPEAKER_00Which is a pediatric drug-resistant epilepsy. So to be clear, even in pediatric epilepsy, it is not the first-line treatment. It is more of a last resort for when the drugs are not working the way that they should.
SPEAKER_02Last ditch effort.
SPEAKER_00Right. And this is because in order to do it basically like extreme enough to get the results they want, it turns into a very, very, very restrictive diet that has side effects. It can lead to elevated blood lipids, not surprisingly, but also like osteoporosis.
SPEAKER_01Or you're getting your calcium, you know.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, I will say a lot of times they'll just add heavy cream to everything and these like hospital ketogenic diets. Like, oh, we're not at the right percentage. Just pour more heavy cream on this egg yolk.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, boy.
SPEAKER_00It's a tough diet. I mean, people who need to do it for medical reasons have to really bend over backwards to meet those restrictions. But I should probably say that most people doing the ketogenic diet are not that extreme. They're not getting the same proportion of their calories from fat that like the medical type, someone doing an extreme like medical ketogenic diet is doing. They're doing more of a low carb diet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which is so funny to me because that means they're wrong on two levels. They're wrong on the first level of low-carb diets, generally is like kind of unnecessary in general. Like, that's not how our body works. Like, our bodies evolve to run mainly on carbs. Or our brain runs almost entirely on carbs. They're wrong on that level. They're also run on the second level, is that they're not even doing the keto diet because the actual keto diet is very strict.
SPEAKER_00Right. It's debatable. Like, are you making ketones? To what extent? And then a lot of people like low carb diets for reasons that have nothing to do with the process of ketosis. So it's sort of like you're there are a lot of diets that are clumped together that are actually doing completely different things for the body.
SPEAKER_01Ketosis, by the way, is what happens when your body runs out of carbs. And your brain, which is very picky eater from a biochemical perspective, your brain cannot run on proteins and fat unless that protein and fat has been converted into something called ketone bodies. And then your brains can actually use it.
SPEAKER_00If you can't produce those ketones, which there are, you know, like very rare conditions where that occurs, it would be Yeah, your brain would literally starve to death. Uh a deadly situation. So it's our body's safety mechanism to make sure that it has a fuel source when we are either starving or I guess the 21st century just restricting our diet very Yeah, for no reason severely for a single macronutrient.
SPEAKER_01I can't stress this enough. Our body is not meant to live like this from every perspective.
SPEAKER_00Well, and people like to say, like, that carbs aren't necessary to survive.
SPEAKER_01Which is not true.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's I mean, you could go through ketosis in life, but like your body is made to metabolize carbs, right?
SPEAKER_01To say that carbs is not necessary because there's no because there's um essential amino acids, there's essential fatty acids, like there are stuff in proteins and fat that literally your body cannot make. And I don't think there is a counterpart in carbs. I think carbs are right. There's no essential carbs. But that's like saying, like, hey, technically I don't need water. I just need things that contains water.
SPEAKER_00Right. So the like the frugivore diet. There's there's actually a water-free diet where people just tell you to eat fruits.
SPEAKER_01As long as there's water molecules in the things that you're taking, you don't need to drink water water, but why?
SPEAKER_00It's a purposeless endeavor to restrict carbs when you don't need to for a medical reason, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01You brought up one reason why the keto diet got popular is because it's playing off of people's past trauma of like you're told that fat is bad for you. Oh, guess what? Fat is actually great for you. And I feel like a lot of people hopped on that bandwagon. Most people fall off of it.
SPEAKER_00And just in case we haven't said it, fat is great for you. You need fat, you need all kinds of fat. Even saturated fat is necessary. This isn't the we hate fat podcast.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, not at all.
SPEAKER_00We hate ridiculous, marketed extremes.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I think the other extreme that people went through in the 70s and 80s, I think, are also bad. Like we went through a fat is bad phase. And that is just another extreme that is very unhelpful.
SPEAKER_00And it is hard when you do a high carb diet because you're hungry all the time. Yes. Fat is super satiating, just like protein. And so if you are trying to lose weight, I mean, it does help to lean into fat and protein because they make you fuller longer.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Peanut butter.
SPEAKER_00It doesn't have to be an animal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great option. Yeah, so that's one reason. I feel like the pendulum swim is definitely one reason why keto got popular. I think another reason why keto got popular is because of this ketosis angle of like your body enters into a state of ketosis. And then that I think is the precursor to all the biohacking stuff that's happening.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Because it sounds super cool.
SPEAKER_00It sounds so cool.
SPEAKER_01Unlocking a part of my body's secret mode.
SPEAKER_00And then people start using the word autophagy and intermittent fasting, and like then you start getting into absolutely the biohacker angle.
SPEAKER_01Also very male-coded. Your body has a secret mode that no one tells you. And then once you activate this secret mode, your brain unlocks new potential, right? It's very new agey stuff, but I cannot stress enough. Ketosis is your body's way of like not killing itself when it's low carb.
SPEAKER_00Right. We're just so fortunate that we have it as a safety mechanism. We love ketosis in keeping ourselves alive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00As a diet trends.
SPEAKER_01Not so good. Everyone I know who hop on the keto bandwagon inevitably stop because, like I said, it's actually really annoying to be on the keto diet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've known a lot of people who did it for a pretty impressive amount of time, like a year or two.
SPEAKER_02That's very impressive.
SPEAKER_00I don't know anyone who stuck with it. The most impressive thing. I know someone who did uh quote healthy keto where they tried to avoid like excess saturated fat, and they just did like a ton of avocado and salmon and like a lot of unsaturated fats, which is super impressive, but would take all of your mental and social energy and like life.
SPEAKER_01You can eat like 12 things if that's what you're restricting yourself to.
SPEAKER_00Right. A lot of work. And at the end of the day, they didn't feel well at the end of it.
SPEAKER_01No, no fiber.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, nuts, seeds.
SPEAKER_01Um Right, but imagine getting all your fiber via nuts.
SPEAKER_00Like your mouth would just get tired of you can do very low carb fruits and vegetables. Depends how, you know, stringent you want to be. And that's where you get people saying they can't have carrots because there's too much sugar.
SPEAKER_02So funny.
SPEAKER_00The things that like break you internally as a dietitian when you hear.
SPEAKER_02Oh boy.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that's kind of the nutrition side of things. I don't know if you have any thoughts from the more public health lens or Yeah, the public health stuff we already mentioned already.
SPEAKER_01If we look at mortality data for the United States, but also like most of the wealthy countries, heart disease is the undisputed number one killer in the United States and many other countries. It has been that way for more than half a century, pretty much since the epidemiological transition, which is the shift from infectious disease into chronic disease. Heart disease became like the king of death. Second place is cancer. So just think about how scary cancer is. Heart disease, more. More death caused by heart disease.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is weird. Like cancer has always scared me more than heart disease. And I think it's because of that little orthorexic demon on your shoulder saying, Oh, like you can outwork heart disease.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you can exercise yourself away from heart disease or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which I have learned is not fully true.
SPEAKER_01No, a lot of it is genetics, unfortunately. Yeah, sadly. But yeah, on average, heart disease kills over 160 people per 100,000 people adjusted for age. This doesn't sound like a lot, but if you look at mortality data, this is so many people. This is the, in fact, the number one cause of mortality in the United States and many other countries. The age adjustment is necessary here because since heart disease is a chronic disease, meaning that most of it needs to be built over time, and therefore the longer you live, the higher your risk. So if you don't adjust for age, then it could give like a an inaccurate perception for the actual mortality risk.
SPEAKER_00That makes sense because if everyone were living to 100, we would also be dying of heart disease, probably.
SPEAKER_01You have to adjust for age for, I mean, for math reasons, but that's sort of a conceptual reason why you adjust for age. Your risk of dying from heart disease is higher as you age. And the basic premise of heart disease and fat is that saturated fat increases a type of cholesterol in our body called low density lipoproteins. You don't need to know any of the biochemistry. Just know that the correlation between saturated fat and heart disease is this thing in the middle called low density lipoprotein. And when you increase your consumption of saturated fat, the level of LDL in your blood goes up. And when your level of LDL in your blood goes up, it essentially forms plaques on your vessels, is a simple way of looking at it, but it's actually a very complicated series of chemical reaction that happens over a long period of time. But your vessels become stiffer. And have you ever had like an old rubber band and it's like cracks and it breaks?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I hate that.
SPEAKER_01Your blood vessel should not be stiff. Blood vessel needs to be very flexible. So when it's stiff, that's when you have problems because maybe a part of it flakes off and sends a solid piece of stuff down your, I don't know, aorta, and then it goes to somewhere and it causes ischemia. I'm being unnecessarily dramatic, but that's the general premise of why saturated fat is bad for you.
SPEAKER_00You know, in my head, there's atherosclerosis and then there's arteriosclerosis.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I'm skipping there's a lot of these terms.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I don't think we need to. I was like in my head, like which one's which?
SPEAKER_01There's a lot of mechanism. Talk to a doctor if you want to know all the differences.
SPEAKER_00It's also the kind of thing where it's gonna change each time you get your labs drawn based on your diet, and it changes relatively quickly. So if you made dietary changes, you could see your LDL cholesterol improve.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, within days.
SPEAKER_00So that's pretty cool. But I will say the damage is done over time. It's cumulative, and they are starting to address this earlier and earlier. I think there are some new cholesterol guidelines that are pretty aggressive at treating high cholesterol earlier in life or more aggressively.
SPEAKER_01Because it's a chronic issue, the sooner you start becoming conscious of your saturated fat intake, the better. There is no magic reverse option to undo your previous diet. However, the sooner you start, the better. And the video that I recommended by Eddie Burbach, where he ate like RFK Jr. for a month, his cholesterol change within days. It's that fast.
SPEAKER_00There's an Instagram page I follow called Carnivore Cringe. I think they just find people on different like Facebook pages who post weird things about the carnivore diet, but a lot of times they'll post people's labs. And the lipid labs can be terrifying. There are things you just ordinarily would never see. And there's now these new sort of pseudoscientific beliefs that, like, no, high cholesterol is not actually bad for you. And actually, you want to have like high LDL cholesterol. Like, there's just all of this reverse science, upside down.
SPEAKER_01That's what pseudoscience is very good at. They will take evidence and they can twist that evidence into whatever narrative that they want. But the evidence for LDL levels and cardiovascular disease is kind of watertight at this point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's not a question. It's like a flat earther mindset to say that LDL cholesterol isn't associated with heart disease.
SPEAKER_01In the world of nutrition, a lot of things are there's nuances. This is not one of them.
SPEAKER_00Right. Like we never say things concretely unless they're like pretty concrete. I will hedge all day long as you do and speak in the most tensitive language ever.
SPEAKER_02But not this.
SPEAKER_00But there are certain things where you actually use like concrete language and say that there is a correlation.
SPEAKER_01Your risk goes up if you have too much LD on your blood vessels. So this is obviously a very serious concern. It is, again, number one killer in the United States. Because cardiovascular disease kills so many Americans every year. From a public health perspective, addressing the prevalence of cardiovascular disease is a top priority. Some would argue it should be the number one public health priority just based on the number of people it kills every day. That said, heart disease is a chronic disease and it has a billion factors that contributes to its development. There's genetics, there's diet, there's how much exercise you get, what drugs you're on, your family history, so many things. There's no one neat way that we can tackle heart disease, and therefore it's something that needs the public health approach to tackle. It's not enough for every primary care physician to tell their patients to eat better and exercise more and prescribe uh as a statin. That's the one, right?
SPEAKER_00Would you say it requires funding sources, potentially?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like this doesn't happen just out of nowhere. You need multiple approaches to tackle this. And telling doctors to tell their patients to eat better is not enough. I'm sure you can speak from experience. Changing people's behavior through patient education is like an uphill battle.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, you're not even talking about things we have yet to research. You're just talking about like the systemic barriers that make it difficult for people to actually pursue those dietary and lifestyle changes. Yeah, it's rarely enough for someone to just provide information. Behavior change is like so much more complex than that.
SPEAKER_01It's never the case where a doctor tells a patient something and they immediately change 180 and turn their life around. That never happens. And all the structural reasons that you alluded to, not everyone have access to a primary care physician, especially in the US when health insurance is designed to help as little as possible because these healthcare CEOs love their mega yachts. Even if you do have health insurance, lifestyle changes depend heavily on where you live, your financial situation, your culture. For example, some cultures eat more beans than others because that's just their dietary makeup. And some cultures eat butter more because that's just their dietary makeup for hundreds of years. That plays into your diet as well. All this is to say, the medical approach is insufficient. Medicine cannot touch this. You need a multi-pronged public health approach. And a large part of that public health approach is addressing diet by necessity, since it's a core part of why heart disease happens. And this has to occur on every level, not just physicians and dietitians telling patients to change your diets. One avenue is, for example, setting national nutrition guidelines, setting accurate nutrition labels, taxing certain foods, or giving subsidies to certain ingredients, education curriculums, maybe starting the school, school lunches. A lot of kids eat school lunches in public schools, just to name a few. Diet is not a thing that you just tell people and then they will do it. Notoriously, people hate eating things that other people tell them to eat, especially for health reasons.
SPEAKER_00And the amount of times I have like had a conversation with someone trying to encourage, you know, more fruits and vegetables, whole grains, beans, all of those things, and I've just left feeling absolutely Absolutely useless is too more often than I want to admit because so often people just have they have their reasons. Like you said, we need a multi-pronged approach that kind of gets at some of those reasons why people might be hesitant to make behavior changes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And each of those approaches needs money and leadership and a coordinated strategy, both from a communication perspective and also from a scientific perspective that is only possible with a large organized public health institution.
SPEAKER_00And like leaders that aren't lawyers and influencers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Maybe someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of a bunch of podcasters who suddenly finds himself in positions of power. Right. Current regime, we've talked about already, is advocating for things that are just kind of dangerous. They're pushing eating more saturated fat, which undoubtedly will lead to higher rates of LDLs, which will then undoubtedly lead to higher rates of cardiovascular disease. And I'm not exaggerating when I say Maha will get people killed. They'll just do it with extra steps.
SPEAKER_00Oh, then they've already done it.
SPEAKER_01They've already done it. We don't even have to wait. We're seeing it in 2026.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01The anti-vax stuff, gutting food poisoning monitoring, as we see in started in Michigan, but apparently it's everywhere. Cyclosporidia, I think. We're seeing the effect of this Maha movement getting people hurt and killed. And because heart disease is a chronic disease, it's impossible to trace the link between the Maha movement's decision in government and a particular individual's death. However, I promise you, if this country survives another 10 years, and that's a big if, we will have public health researchers running that epidemiological study and be like, oh yeah, there's a massive blip in 2025 and 2026 for cardiovascular disease deaths.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, it's sort of like they can see that blip in uh vitamin K hesitancy. They're saying more hemorrhages. So this is like just a longer-term version of this. We can't see the like immediate effects because it takes takes a long time.
SPEAKER_01So in 10 years.
SPEAKER_00And there are other factors, whereas vitamin K is pretty singular.
SPEAKER_01Vitamin K you can trace directly. Like an individual decision not to get the vitamin K shot will lead to that outcome, which is bleeding. Cardiovascular that happens on scales of decades.
SPEAKER_00And for different reasons. Sometimes maha, sometimes poor food access.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I think the cardiovascular heart disease question is one of the best examples of how public health works and how public health influence people's health because we're witnessing the counterfactuals right now. We're witnessing like what happens when public health doesn't work. We'll find out in 10 years, you know? I guess we should end something positive. Otherwise, it's a little too depressing. So, what are some tips? I have a few things that I don't mind sharing, but I'm sure you, a dietitian, would have better tips than what I have.
SPEAKER_00Well, in general, trying to emphasize like plant-based sources of fat is helpful. If you are omnivorous, then the animal-based sources tend to kind of come without trying. Whereas like getting in your nuts and seeds and avocado and that's harder. Obviously, fish is important. That's one thing I personally have to work on.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you're not a fish person.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, I I am learning to like fish. I will eat salmon.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, you just need one fish. You don't need to eat all the fish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm also really bad at cooking fish.
SPEAKER_01People overcook it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I because I get scared. I don't want to get like food poisoning and then I overcook it and it's a bad day.
SPEAKER_01Unfortunately, when a salmon is cooked properly, it looks a little bit rare and people get freaked out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's what's happening.
SPEAKER_01Same thing with like pork and chicken. Like a properly cooked chicken, slightly tender near the bones, and people get freaked out.
SPEAKER_00You don't want to eat my chicken. It's pretty tough. I'm not gonna lie.
SPEAKER_01You blast it with heat.
SPEAKER_00I think I've mentioned it on this podcast before, but I was like a vegetarian in my formative cooking years. And so I'm pretty good at like most cooking, but I am bad at chicken and fish, and I don't make a ton of other meats.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, being good at cooking with vegetables is more impressive.
SPEAKER_00Maybe just in America.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough. Yeah. Be mindful of your saturated fat intakes. My tip is don't try to go cold turkey. Like, don't be like, I'm not gonna eat this thing anymore. Like, it just doesn't work. It's all about balance, it's all about sustainability because if a diet can't be sustained, it's kind of pointless if it can't be sustained.
SPEAKER_00So that's the takeaway I have from most of the people I've seen try keto, is just that like it's it works for weight loss, but it has unintended effects, and you have to be able to do it for as long as you want the effects to last.
SPEAKER_01We don't recommend keto, by the way. I don't know if that's clear enough.
SPEAKER_00No, I was very hesitant there in my wording.
SPEAKER_01For sure. So I would suggest if you want to reduce, for example, meat intake, just do meatless Mondays. To start, start small. I've said this on other episodes before. It's more important for everyone to try a little bit than for like 10% of the population to go vegan. You don't have to cut out something completely, especially if it's something that your culture. I am Asian American and rice is a big part of the Asian American diet, East Asian diet. And my mom went through a carb is bad phase and she was like not eating rice, and she was miserable because rice is such an important part of the East Asian diet. So don't go to an extremes.
SPEAKER_00And once you realize that nutritionally, white rice and brown rice are not that different, it makes you feel free inside.
SPEAKER_01It's fiber, right? That's the main difference or something.
SPEAKER_00Just a little bit though. You could have an extra side of broccoli and have your white rice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and probably make it up. Yeah. And this one I picked up from shout out to Liam. What's his handle? Plant slant.
SPEAKER_00Oh, at the plant slant, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Shout out to Liam. He didn't originate it, but I saw him mention this and I love this so much, which is screw the labels. Don't care about labels. If you want to be a vegetarian, but you really love bacon, just be a vegetarian who eats bacon. Like it's fine.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I watched that one. No, that's a great message. And you know what? I probably would have been a vegetarian longer if I had heard something like that, because it was just like random little things. Like, I didn't miss chicken, you know.
SPEAKER_01Well, you miss is bacon.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So start small. If a diet is not sustainable, it's kind of pointless, especially if you want to do like long-term things like saturated fat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_01Any tips from you, the resident dietitian?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, food needs to taste good and like so important. The taste of butter is like it's good. You can use it sometimes and not others. Like, I think, like you said, just kind of making small changes that work for you. Like sometimes you can use spray oil for your pancakes, other times you can use butter. It doesn't have to be like a rule in terms of just using less saturated fat. You can use seed oils.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very safe.
SPEAKER_00I use canola oil, but you also don't have to. Like, no one is forcing you. Olive oil is a great option.
SPEAKER_01Olive oil's great. Love olive oil.
SPEAKER_00If you're using like really, really high heat, it has its limits.
SPEAKER_01It tends to taste a little off.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you're worried about oxidation to begin with. I wouldn't then like go heat it to like 500 degrees. Um, but I also wouldn't do that with butter either.
SPEAKER_01No, butter will burn. You want to use clarified butter, but even that you can't really take to too high of a heat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's where the grapeseed oil comes into play.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, get back on grapeseed oil or avocado oil. I think avocado you can take to pretty high heats. Peanut as well, but a lot of people are allergic to peanuts. Yeah, and just know that if the chemical extraction freaks you out, you have alternatives. You don't have to wipe out all the seed oils.
SPEAKER_00You know what I should plug randomly? The best debunk I have ever seen. It's not even a debunk, it's just like a very thorough explanation of everything that comes for like seed oils and stuff. If you search Nutrivore vegetable oil, Sarah Ballantine created like a really amazing guide that is super evidence-based and kind of answers all of your questions about seed oils, how they're made. Like it's great. It's the best resource I have found so far.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, plug it, and then you can check that out. So that is fat, saturated fat. Try to reduce your intake. I think that is just sound dietary and nutritional guidance.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening.